This is the 21st century in the free Western world, yessir.
Yes, I’m wading into this whole debate. Well, not wading, more like already stuck in the middle and trying to be as quiet as possible. GAY-BASHING CHRISTIANS, the papers and protesters say. GOD HATES FAGS, the Christians say. And I’m there, sitting right in the overlap: I’m Christian, and I’m gay.
All this means is that 1) I happen to believe in Jesus: I follow his commandment to love God and my neighbour, upon which all other rules of the faith hinge, and 2) I also happen to be interested exclusively in women. The media doesn’t show us a lot, they like to show the two extreme views in the gay-Christian debate.
In the media: Christians aren’t fans of gays.
All the Christians in the headlines talk about is stoning the gays, how sinful being gay is, and how much God hates the gays. They mention how people like me pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe, so that we can justify our wicked ways. As usual, they neglect to mention that every Christian does that. After all, I’m not sure I know a Christian who observes the Jewish festival of Yom Kippur, a festival which must be observed according to the book of Leviticus, which is also the book of the Bible admonishing gay sex between men. Neither do I know of any good folk who stoned their child to death for (inevitably) speaking back to them–can’t have your kids disrespecting you now, as the Bible said.
In the media: Gays aren’t fans of Christians.
I have a few friends, formerly of faith, who abandoned it once they came to terms with the fact that they were gay. Because they believed the two were incompatible. And many gay rights activists dismiss the homophobic Christians by making light of their faith, by equating a belief in God to a belief in fairies. For people who preach about equal rights for all, they don’t do a very good job of expressing that belief, and they alienate a potential support base in gay Christians (we do exist!) or Christians who are straight but support equal rights.
Both opinions are stupid.
Well, in my humble opinion. Both sides are so busy shouting at each other, they don’t even try to look for a way forward. They could, should, find a level playing field by getting to understand the mindset of gay Christians. The activists could attempt to understand the convictions of our faith, the Christians could attempt to see why we believe we are God’s gay children. If either side could, for one moment, believe what we believe, maybe we could end this war. Instead we are dismissed as self-hating by gays, and as false Christians by those of faith. It’s a sad state of affairs.
Anyway, next time another such a debate kicks off (next week, probably), I just wonder if someone’ll say: hold up, let’s stop shouting and talk. If we can’t be friends, we don’t have to be enemies. There are people who have reconciliated their sexuality with their faith, and maybe we can do the same.
Or maybe not.
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A follow-up article: The Thank You Post
a flock of crows 
Thank you for your post. So very few people are addressing this. I am a Christian and what i like to call a Humanist- care about people.
Christian: I for one have been on the sidelines watching the two having a go at each other and in that time i have been trying to study this topic and you know I looked at Christianity itself, there are so many beliefs and interpretations within the faith itself. What was apparent to me was not apparent to the next Christian whether they be straight or gay. Even matters like the Sabbath for instance were so open to interpretation. Right and Wrong has been become so relative even within the faith.However what i have been able to see from the sidelines is ungodly behavior. What the Christian has lost touch of is that no matter how right you think you are; if it is not done in the right manner then it cannot deliver its power. Words like “God Hates Fags” should not even be found to come from these mouths. Would Jesus utter those words? We have lost all sense of love, the greatest command is to love. Should you want to relay any message to shy away from sin; love should echo the words. We are called to edify and not condemn. How are words like “God Hates Fags” for edification?? These words only take people far away from the point you are trying to get them to….closer to their friend/family who knows all right and wrong and works with the Holy Spirit. If you believe your calling is to bring the people to Jesus, then do it in a loving manner and pray.
LGBT: I think in these situations Christianity takes the bigger load on the guilty scale but the LGBT community is not so innocent itself. I heard of a story where a whole group was found outside a church and they were pretty vulgar and partaking in obscene behaviorism and shouting “we want your children” and there was a lot of violence which needed police attention. This was after the preacher expressed publicly his thoughts about homosexuality. See just like Christians it seems hypocritical to hold to a view and then dismiss it as soon as it is convenient. Isnt the whole theme behind LGBT that of freedom of expression; whether by your lifestyle or thoughts. Why should the right of the Christian to express his thoughts be acted upon with something that is contrary to their belief. Vulgar and Obscene behavior. Its sounds like the bullying to me just like the bullying from Christianity. The victim card is being held by one party. No one wants to hear this part. I liked this post because it addressed what people are not willing to address; their behaviors.
There is a term, Christian Humanist, that comes out of the Renaissance. Erasmus was one. I consider myself pretty close to that myself.
I just researched that “we want your children” story. It happened 19 years ago–that’s an awfully long time ago! http://www.hamiltonsquare.net/articlesRiotsSep1993.htm
If you want a partial list of violence against gays and lesbians, check out this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States
Thank you Ron for that. I should perhaps read more about the Reniassance and this Erasmus. Glad there are those like me; there is a saying in my county that goes “ukuhamba kukubona” which directly translates “to travel is to see” which really echoes my gratitude for my mental travel to this post. I don’t want to dismiss your statement: “that’s an awfully long time ago” but allow me to tiptoe around it a bit. That’s like around the corner, i speak of course with the little knowledge and experience i have, behaviors of such with centuries oh-so-proximate tend to spill over and i mean that was the 20th century and we are in the 21st. Take Mr Corkins for instance, he bares some resemblance to the 20th century thinking. I mean its not enough to draw any argument but i just wanted to tiptoe around there. Not to dwell much on old-thinking having its traces within the new-thinking ill try to make my way through to the point I attempted to make. Kind of bad behavior with bullying and I like what the author of this post said “hey lets stop shouting. If we cant be friends “agree” we we don’t have to be enemies.” If i don’t agree with you I don’t have to judge you or attempt to hurt you. And as she(sorry for this if you are guy i think i saw in the post on point 2 an affinity for women) says this is what the media is showing; the extremes of these two badly behaved people and I mean anything the other hears from the other already feels like its trying to inspire some revolution against the other. When a Christian father tells his child or his church member, being convicted by what be believes and would like to pass onto his child or that member, that homosexuality is wrong does he have to be labelled homophobic? I understand people’s actions are unpredictable and that that child or member could fall into the extreme Christian and light the first torch to burn homosexuals but can that father echo his beliefs without needing to be torched himself? I say there is bullying towards the the Christian that is somehow swept under the rug and one group gets to hold the victim card for a long time. “Let me hold the card for just a little longer because you have no reason to hold it, for long you have suppressed my belief or my expression.” Then it gets alright for the Christian not to cough about homosexuality because for all that is known he is trying to incite hate. I guess I’m saying there is some kind of hypocrisy and its not addressed because why does it matter; the world is becoming more humanist and anyone having views contra to that is already viewed anti-humanist. And as she said the two sides need to check themselves because the mid-breeds(strong christian and non-violent and the strong homosexual and non-threatening are suffering) and just to throw it in there: Jesus was a humanist and still held strong beliefs about right and wrong. Author: the email notification thing is hiladonkious….(I KNOW WHERE YOU LEAVE)!!!! Ok that was ultra-long….
What a refreshing read – thanks for posting! Check out our campaign, you might be interested- people of all faiths and beliefs coming together to take a stand against homophobia, and hopefully, as you put it, saying ‘hold up, let’s stop shouting and talk’ ! If you’re interested in getting involved do get in touch, we need people like you!
Thank you! Your campaign sounds wonderful, and I would certainly like to get involved. 😀
Hi! Yes, that’s actually the thing about some fervent Christians who tend to judge gays without seeing the humanity in them. There must be some new framework of understanding for people of different faiths in learning how to accept and embrace those people of different sexual orientation. Yesterday, I attended a workshop entitled Remembering the Sacred Masculine here in Manila, and we had a good interactions on learning these underlying issues, elevating our perspective on understanding the problem of too much masculinity and patriarchy that dominate our society and mock the LGBT people. I may not be gay, but I resonate with the need to transform and to stop any kind of discrimination by teaching the principles of Love.
The problems I think — as with many problems covered by our news — are that we, as a society, have come to rely on the idea that 1) all debates are dichotomous and 2) that we listen to whichever sides are loudest and at odds. A great example of this is the debate on climate change; a great number of people believe that climate change is occurring but that it isn’t necessarily caused by man, but this side is completely drowned out, primarily by the people who deny climate change even though 99% of climatologists agree that there is indeed climate change occurring. Your argument has the same “problem;” there are, apparently, only room for two views to be explored when it comes to gay rights, and they need to be as close to polar opposites as possible.
That said, I hope most people are smart enough to actually look at the world around them to get some of their insights and not just flawed media sources, because there are so, so many gay Christians out there, or religious people who support homosexuals. In Montana the entire gay movement is largely based on the idea that a huge percent of LGBT people still believe in a higher power, to the extent that as a gay atheist I sometimes feel excluded.
That is the sad fact about many arguments. There must be a right side and wrong side; I suppose it’s a reflection of our human nature. But progress will never be made until we look away from both extremes. The media blinds people to the truth in a lot of cases, but there are many gay Christians out there like me who want to look for a way forward. You shouldn’t feel excluded though, that’s unfortunate. Maybe you can find a gay support group in a different area that isn’t focused on Christianity? Or you could form your own! 😀
I mean, I’m not a big member of the gay community regardless and — apologies for this bit of somewhat cynical pragmatism — I think that it’s good to focus on gay Christians because we’ll get more support by showing our similarities as groups instead of our differences.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I’m also a gay Christian. My belief is that, as a Christian, I should be following the teachings of Christ. Jesus taught love. That’s it!!! Love for God and love for your neighbour. Jesus freed us from the “rules” of the Old Testament by dying. Hence why Christians are not bound by the Jewish laws. That includes Leviticus!! Not once did Jesus condemn homosexuality. He told us to love. I feel that the homophobia displayed by certain “Christians” is most definitely not an act of love and therefore goes against the teachings of Jesus!! If I live my life trying to show love towards others I believe I’m doing ok…. I have total respect for anyone who tries to live a loving life, be they gay, straight, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, whatever! The world could do with more love and less hate. That’s what Jesus was going for and the message seems to have been lost for a lot of people…. 😦
I’m glad we feel the same way! 😀 Jesus’ message was love. The OT is concerned with Jewish Law, and Paul’s writings are not only taken out of context, but were his personal opinions. I don’t believe that his opinions supercede the commandment of Jesus. Being a Christian means to live a life of love, and not to condemn or judge others: that’s for God alone to do. I’m glad you could relate to my post, because you’re definitely not alone out there! 😀
I thought Jesus’ message was obedience.
His commandment and overall message was to love God and to love your neighbour. I believe loving God is respecting His world and creations, and also using the intelligence He gave Man over other creatures. Loving your neighbour is just being kind, respectful, and not causing harm to those around you. Being gay crosses neither rule.
To believe in Jesus is awesome! I am a supporter as well. Where we differ it seems is that in the bible it says to repent when you have done wrong, and then turn away from that sin- much like a liar. To try your best to not do that sin again.
In a song by a group called Leeland it says
“When I stand before God’s throne
Nothing hidden, nothing unknown
Dead to my body, my old life He took
God will hold in His hands my days in a book”
Those words are true and can be found in many places in the bible. When he opens your “book” what will he see?
Love? How many times did you lie, cheat, steal, kill, immoral acts- he will see everything- just like pages in a book of your life. Will it stand the test? It’s not about trying to do what the bible says 51% of the time and you will be ok, but trying to live 100% in what the bible says. We are not perfect but we are to turn away from any and all sin. We are to love- most of us know this part.
I find that people have an idea about who God is and that they formulate this plan that God will be ok with the things people do..cheat on taxes-he will be ok with that. A cashier gives you too much money back and you keep it, that will be ok too. Pass by the homeless guy at a stop sign and look the other direction, it’s ok because he is just a drunk. The devil is at work and just loves this game.
I got a good laugh on this next line…
If either side could, for one moment, believe what we believe, maybe we could end this war- I agree now believe my side! See how simple that is….just believe what I believe and you will be on the right path. It’s not about what you think, what I think, but what it says in the bible and finding the truth for yourself by reading and praying and just plain talking with God. In the end it’s not just as simple as I have lived a good life and my God will see my good- he will in fact see the bad as well. This is not just for all not just one side of the posters on here but for all.
May God bless all who read this and find the real answers in the bible.
So, you mean to tell me, sir, that you do 100% of what the Bible says? That means you stone any homosexuals, adulterers, disrespectful children or prostitutes you come across? You observe Yom Kippur and other Jewish festivals, you never wear clothing made of two different cloths, and you eat neither shellfish nor pork? Also, any religious women in your household cover their hair in church and close their mouths? You must also be painstakingly poor, because the Bible instructs us to take all of our riches and give them to the poor. As I have mentioned before, every Christian alive picks and chooses what they believe of the Bible.
You say that in regards to love “most of us know this part”, but I disagree with that. Love does not mean hounding another to agree with you when they follow a different path. And yes, everyone has their own personal idea about who God is, which is how we have personal relationships with him; we don’t all have the exact same relationship or ideas. Christianity is not all about what you read in the Bible; I think many forget that before the last century many people did not own a personal Bible, and the majority had not read it at all. I have found my truth by talking with God, not purely by reading the words of other humans trying to understand their relationship with God (that is, after all, what the Bible is). I respect your right to a different view of this whole debate, and I only ask that you respect mine. God bless.
Amen!!
If, according to some of you, being gay is not a sin, and gays will go to heaven, then, by rights, murderers, rapists and thieves should go to heaven.
If God was all love and sparkles and good times, why would He speak about faith (Jesus healed people by their faith, so their faith was so strong that they were able to be healed), repentance and atoning for our sins?
Some of you say that it’s an Old Testament thing and that it isn’t relevant for today. Well, I ask you to read this: Romans 1 26-32 ” 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
It also speaks of it in 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:8-11.
I’m not trying to be mean here, or hateful, as a lot of you seem to deem us Christians. I am merely pointing out that God has specifically said it’s a sin. At least it isn’t the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
I honestly believe, that if there is a true, sincere willingness to turn to God (the creator God of the bible, not the one people make up to suit their own lives and wants), a genuine desire to please God and true repentance, He will forgive. But we need to ask for it, not just think we are forgiven because that’s what someone has told us.
“4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.” Luke 11:4.
I ask that you please consider that we are not being hateful, but trying to point out the facts in the bible. I myself am saying this because I feel that the author of this post is a lovely guy and I genuinely think he loves God, but he may have been misguided in some way by some false teachings.
And, like many have mentioned, it’s up to the Holy Spirit to convict people of our sins, but sometimes we just need to be shown that we are sinning by someone who genuinely cares.
Eternity-is-forever, please look at some of the sins of the depraved or useless mind. Many of the sins of the useless mind are quite common in the church
fornication: whether we’re talking about pedophile pastors or porn-addicted elders of evangelists caught with prostitutes or just garden-variety lust, many (most?) religious men are fornicators.
maliciousness: when Christians used to say that AIDS was God’s punishment for
homosexuals, this was malicious. Many homosexuals saw dozens of their friends die gruesome deaths when Jerry Fallwell said this.
backbiters: I’ve never seen Christians go at it the way I’ve seen Southern Baptists chew one another up on Southern Baptist websites. Bickering, attacking, and backbiting.
gossips: from “little old ladies” to pastors at their conferences and ministerial meetings, gossip is nearly universal in the church.
without understanding: many good, religious people are just ignorant and unreflective.
without natural affection: any parent who can kick their teen-age kid out of the house and onto the streets really is without natural affection. But they’ll get a hearty “Amen!” if they attend certain churches.
implacable: your most strident fundamentalists aren’t satisfied until you either knuckle under and agree with them, or you leave. Stubborn. You simply can’t reason with them.
unmerciful: no concern for gay and lesbian teenagers who in despair commit suicide because of their teachings.
Christians suffer from the sins of the depraved mind, then do exactly what Paul says they do. “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
Now continue on to Romans 2, and you’ll see WHY Romans 1 was written.
“You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?”
Eternity-is-forever, these verses are directed directly at your religious heart. Read it out loud, it is God’s word for you right this moment.
This keeps getting better- so you are saying—she will go to hell because she is judging- We are to point out to Christians when another Christian is doing wrong. The mere fact that you are throwing this up means you are in fact judging…no?
His kindness is intended for you to turn away from your sin…..so pointing out to a brother or sister that homosexuality is a sin- because like she said many on here don’t think it is a sin- is what was being pointed out- that it is a sin. Many times in the above statement you point out what you think of a group of people are doing- old ladies in church- so all old ladies in church lie? Don’t throw around a bunch of words to decieve others that you are right- all people lie- homosexuals included. It is when people lie and don’t do anything about it that will lead to eternity. Some for instance like to say that God killed off almost the whole population in the old testemant- but this is a lie- SIN did this. God has words for all of us and when you take the parts you like and don’t follow what you don’t like- there is the problem.
“If, according to some of you, being gay is not a sin, and gays will go to heaven, then, by rights, murderers, rapists and thieves should go to heaven.”
Jesus gave the commandment: “Love thy God and thy neighbour.” Being gay does not cross that commandment: one is still fully capable of loving God, and respecting, loving and displaying kindness to the people around them. Killing, raping and stealing from people is not loving your neighbour. That said, yes, it is possible that murderers, rapists and thieves could go to heaven if after crossing Jesus’ commandment they asked for forgiveness and tried to live a righteous life. Did Jesus not tell the thief on the cross that he would go to Heaven, after he repented? There is no sin so great that you cannot get into heaven in repentance, and to believe that because of someone’s actions they are damned forever is passing judgement on that person.
In regards to the Romans quote, I don’t believe that Paul was referring to homosexuality the exact same way you do. I would explain, but I am sure you would disregard it as more of my false teachings. And irrespective of what Paul said, his opinions and teachings do not supercede the commandment of Jesus Christ: while meaningless lust (of either sexuality) disrespects God in giving yourself up to pleasure and squandering intelligence, being gay does not.
Etermity-is-forever, the People of God no longer have the responsibility of convicting and executing murderers, rapists, and pedophiles, the way the Jews did in the Old Testament. In Romans 13, Paul let us know that maintaining civic order was now the responsibility of those who wield the sword, the civil authorities.
As a Jewish rabbi in Tarsus, he saw the uselessness of the O.T. civil code since the land was under the law and order of the Romans. He saw that the People of God were now free to love the unlovely, and that people who violated the inner law that even Gentiles have, they would be taken care of by the police and the courts.
Seriously, murderers, rapists and thieves don’t generally need us to tell them they’re being bad. And for anyone determined to have sex with an animal? The fact that there’s a Bible verse against it won’t stop them!
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The point I was trying to make is that by believing that homosexuality is not a sin, even if you believe yourself to be a Christian, is just like saying that a Christian that steals or kills isn’t sinning either.
Both would need repentance for God to forgive them.
Repentance, as quoted from Strong’s Concordance: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3341
Once we make the choice to be born again, we become a new creature in Christ.
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” 2 Corinthians 5;17
This means we are to become like Christ. Was He gay? Did He go around lying or just sinning in general? No, He didn’t. He preached the opposite. “Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:16.
You accuse me of judging, but I am not. Judging. Why do you people always accuse us Christians of judging others?!
We are told to use the scriptures to rebuke and correct.
Please read this article without tearing it to shreds. http://www.truechristianity.com/christian/judgement.htm
A small quote from it: “Some people say all judgment is wrong by singling out the verse “Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matthew 7:1). It is true that there are certain forms of judgment that we are not meant to make. The above verse is referring to one of these forms. However, there are instances where the Bible says that we need to judge. We need to read other verses and not only the one above.
Correction is not judgment, as the Bible says that we should correct, rebuke and be bold to those who are sinning. It is to be done in an act of caring for them in the hope that they will believe. That way we could contribute to the saving of a soul. If we don’t, we could be responsible for suppressing the truth which could mean eternal death instead of eternal life for that person. “James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”
As I said before, I am not judging, merely trying to point things out. I am not perfect myself, but when I realise I am going against what God wants me to be, I ask Him to forgive me and I try not to do it anymore. I am just a sinner who is trying to be God’s servant.
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;” 2 Timothy 4:3
What gospel are you listening to, man’s or God’s? “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8
It is entirely clear though that you will not hear what anyone says on the matter, so I am going to opt out now.
I pray that the Lord speaks to you and shows you His truth, not man’s truth.
Goodbye and all the best. 🙂
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I really appreciate you bringing this up. I’m not gay, but I’m a moderate conservative, religious and support gay rights. To some, thats contradictive, but I never understood why lines need to be so adamantly drawn. I don’t believe anyone should be condemned for who they are, and why is that not the Christian ideals supported in the media? And I’d like to not be condemned for my conservative and religious beliefs, because that doesn’t make me a judgmental jerk. I hope I’ve relayed myself clearly, I simply agree with your feelings and I’m really glad you shared.
Thanks for the comment, I get perfectly what you mean. 🙂 It’s not contradicting at all! Christianity is meant to be a religion of love, where “outcasts” can come together and find a place where they are always welcome. And yet that isn’t the message that some Christian folk send nowadays. That’s why people tend to assume that religious people are immediately homophobic and judgemental, and it’s sad, because it’s so different from how Christ meant us to show our faith.
JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED…unfortunately for many Christians their motto is…judge everyone!
The latter is all too common, unfortunately. We need to return to Christianity’s roots, and simply love and trust and leave the judgement to God alone. Thanks for the comment! 🙂
Great post! I’m a Christian and I see two sides of it: I see people writing off faith and my friends and I trying to convince them not to, and then at the same time I do see a lot of homophobic Christians. But, I see a lot of homophobic non-Christians who justify it in different ways. For some reason, it’s the people who justify it using their faith who get the media’s attention. Homophobia is something I personally will never understand, because I think it’s ridiculous, but I’m aware that identifying as a Christian means a lot of people who don’t know me automatically assume that I’m homophobic, when I’m not.
On the other hand, I saw a collection of pictures from a Gay Pride march where a bunch of Christians had turned out with signs that said, “We’re sorry for how the church has treated you” and “Some Christians are gay – get over it”. It was one of those “faith in humanity = restored” moments.
The media always uses the biggest stereotype they can find; it’s pretty annoying because they’re the basis of many people’s opinion. >.< People assume the same thing about me too, and I guess we just have to prove them wrong. The media helps perpetuate stupid stereotypes and it's up to us to claim the truth back.
And I saw those pictures. They just about made my week. 😉
Nice writing! I’d enjoy having you as one of my students, so whoever your teachers are, or writing mentors, kudos –
I’m old enough to have been part of the 60s movement and what I see today seems a reaction to that time. This time will pass, too. And be remembered; but it will pass. Still being able to teach students entering college gives me a window on your world that I so appreciate. And what I see is a generation of caring, diverse, really interesting young people. I haven’t seen your like in many years. And that gives me hope.
So if there’s one thing I can pass on, it’s history. This ragged and fearful time will change too. And your generation will supplant those now ranting. Have faith in that, too. It’s called evolution, whether that evolution is spiritual or physical. Just think of how much effort it took to grow an elbow!
Evolution doesn’t go backwards. Keep the faith. JS.
Thank you! I’ll have to pass on your kudos to my favourite English teacher, amongst others. 😉
I’ll have to take your word for it, but I hope that it does pass. And maybe they’ll be a new “Other” to take the brunt of the world’s fear and misunderstanding, but their time will pass too. I will most certainly keep on hoping and praying.
My favorite phrase: Trust. It’ll be okay.:)
Reblogged this on Spiritual Crossroads and commented:
Here’s a fine post by a really good, young writer. I wanted to share the wisdom.
Thank you!
You’re welcome. Anytime.
I have spent a long time looking for someone to be grateful to. I am happy each day, to be alive, to be mostly healthy, to have enough income to live on, to see beautiful places and wonderful things, to have good friends. When I was a boy, I had fine adventures. Now I am a woman, with a fine husband.
Most Christian witness to me has been very negative, and as a student of history I am continually appalled at what has been done (and continues to be done) in the name of Jesus. But I have also studied Islam and the Koran, read the Scientologists’ Dianetics, looked at LDS further revelations, even visited ashrams and Buddhist shrines. The closest I ever came to real spirituality was with a group of Algonkians (American aboriginals) who were trying to recapture and preserve their former culture. If there is God, then many religious groups seem to see it through different windows, often made of very dusty and soiled glass.
I have been unable to worship any name or aspect of any spiritual being since moving to Turkey. The closest I come is a weekly webcast by Metropolitan Community Church of Toronto, part of a relatively new denomination that seems to have covered the ground of your debates above and moved on to become a properly caring community.
I hope your journey is not too painful.
I wish your experience of Christianity hadn’t been negative, but then such close-minded attitudes seem to be rather (and unfortunately) prevalent. And yes, all religions seem to have a different view of God, a “many paths to the same summit” sort of thing. I myself find it difficult to find spirituality in supposedly holy things like religious texts, or sculptures of Jesus (seeing as none ever look like a Middle-Eastern man), but I find it in the simple things: dewdrops on leaves, the weird damp…smell in the air before or after rain, the way plants bend and re-assume their positions in the wind. My journey was painful in the past, but as they say–it gets better. 😀
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Congratulations on not just being Freshly Pressed, but on being lauded in the Daily Post. Good work!
Thank you! The first was completely unexpected, and the second even more so. I’m just glad to be part of the community. 😀
Your openness is phenominal. Life seems to have; negative, neutral and positive. It also emphasises wrong, normal and right. It is common practice to classify actions into one of these categories mentioned above. Well, I also know of phrases that advocate freedom of beliefs and judgement being left to God. Life is an individual thing as long as it’s not imposed. I don’t agree with forcing acceptance or rejection on people. Somethings are just not appealing to some people and may even be disgusting to some others; it would definitely sip out in one way or the other. Neither justification nor condemnation should be left to the media or popular opinion. I choose who I want to be for myself and I become it. Whoever is inspired by my style or my values can follow my principles. I choose to accept or reject opinions but anyone who approaches me forcefully can loose a limb. I’ll be exhonerated on the basis of self defence. That’s me, I don’t know about you. It’s brave of you to share though. Opinion is choice! The better way for me may not be the better way for you but it pays to aim higher.
Thank you! Yes, as human beings we do tend to try to classify things into those three paths. Of course, the classification in itself is always entirely subjective. One man’s meat is another’s poison, as the saying goes. I too follow the idea that judgement should be left to God if you’re of faith, and simply left alone if you’re not. I have my opinions, and though I cannot change anyone’s mind I would at least like them to re-evaluate their views, and I like to do the same. It is, after all, through the sharing of ideas that humanity has gotten as far as it has. We’d be nowhere if we were all on our own islands. 😉
Great post. I am appalled on a daily basis by the behavior of some of my fellow Christians. I like to think Jesus would be pretty enraged, too. After all, he believed that the church should be for all God’s children, not just the ones liked by the Pharisees.
I want to point out that not all Christians are this way – in the United Church of Christ, we actively welcome all people. We ordain gay and lesbian people as pastors, welcome them as members, and work for justice and equal treatment for all. I’m proud to be associated with these folks and call myself this kind of Christian.
Thank you! I believe Jesus would be saddened that anybody would be so judged or turned away from the church. I’m glad there are churches like yours who accept everybody, as should be done–it’s unfortunate that yours seems to be a minority.
Interestingly, we’re actually a fairly mainstream denomination with congregations all across the nation. Our roots were in the Congregational Church (remember the Pilgrims? That’s us…). But we were also first ever to ordain an openly gay pastor, in 1972. I’m surprised more people aren’t aware.
Saying this not to recruit you but to let you know that there are more people on this side than you might imagine. Sadly, we’re not the ones in the papers because we’re not standing on the street corners shouting hate at people. Quietly working for peace and justice, just isn’t news I guess. But, it’s important work and needs to be done.
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Very well, thoughtfully and succinctly stated. Thanks for adding your voice to the bedlam. We need more moments of reason like this. Reason, and kindness. Well done.
You comment that “They mention how people like me pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe” and yet Jesus tells us so many times in the Bible not to judge others. It seems to me that the worst worst image that Christians give to the world is when we ignore that commandment. It brings Christ into disrepute and falsely represents his message. Jesus himself didn’t come to judge but to bring forgiveness and healing.
He also said that not all of those who call themselves Christian are indeed Christians.
I read your post when it was first freshly pressed and it stuck in my mind. I wrote my perspective on it here: http://ineedanewman.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/god-hates-gays-and-other-christian-bull-hooey/ I just want you to know that not all Christians are gay-haters.
Hi, thanks for the post. I hope this comment isn’t too long
Personally I think it’s hard to try and argue that homosexuality is not sinful, when the Bible pretty clearly says it is, not only in Leviticus but Paul also, in 1 Corinthians, includes homosexuals in a list of people who won’t get to heaven unless they change their ways. And although you’re right in that it’s impossible not to do at least a bit of picking and choosing, your examples are a bit different. For one, we might not stone rebellious teenagers to death anymore, as that was a legal commandment give specifically to ancient Israel and since Jesus’ death we’re under the New Covenant now etc., but that doesn’t mean that rebelliousness to one’s parents is no longer sinful in itself; it’s just that we should no longer use that punishment for it. Ditto for the Old Testament stuff about putting homosexuals to death.
Having said all this, I disassociate myself as much as you do from the “God hates fags” brigade of “Christians” who think that just because homosexuality is a sin, that means that God hates gays and therefore they should too (whatever happened to “hate the sin but love the sinner”?). All they’re doing is projecting a false image of Christianity and making non-Christians, especially but not just gay ones, less likely to turn to Christ (the exact opposite of what we’re meant to be doing). And I don’t think that being gay is in itself a sin – anyone who still thinks that sexual orientation is something that can be changed is frankly deluding themselves – as with all sins, there’s a difference between being tempted to do something and actually doing it. I think the attitude that straight Christians/non-practising gay Christians should take is that gays are just people who sin differently to us – we’re all sinners and homosexuality is no more sinful than any other sin. And it’s extremely hypocritical for some Christians to spend so much time condemning homosexuality without saying a word about greed, which is mentioned much more often in the Bible and is a lot more destructive to the lives of the general population. Which sin do they think causes more suffering and injustice in the world? Homosexuality or greed?
So, in conclusion, I don’t think we can ignore what the Bible says about homosexuality – I’m no theologian, but still the Bible does seem to be pretty clear that God doesn’t approve of it – but neither do I think straight Christians should see gay people as somehow different from anyone else. We are all broken and sinful, and we are all tempted to do, say or think things that we shouldn’t, whether we do them or not. There is a difference between repentant and unrepentant sin, but there’s no difference between homosexuality and other sins.
And of course, the media doesn’t like to show either gay Christians like you or people who share my viewpoint. It’s a bit different in the UK – incidentally here Christians are associated at least as much with the economic left and human rights/social justice issues as with the anti-gay/anti-abortion right. In fact, we don’t get an awful lot of coverage of this issue at all, but when we do it’s pretty much the same as in America. And the saddest thing about this issue is the amount of division it’s caused not just among people generally but in the Church. The trouble is in this area you can’t say anything right. If you say homosexuality is a sin, you’re a homophobe (particularly in my country); if you say it isn’t, then you’re not a true Christian. It’s one of those issues where just having a different opinion is seen as morally wrong by the other side, whatever side you’re own.
Thanks for the comment! It’s not long at all, I like to know that people have thought deeply about the matter anyway. 😉
It’s just my personal opinion that it isn’t sinful; in my understanding of Christianity and my relationship to God I take as sinful anything which compromises Jesus’ two commandments. I (personally) take Paul’s opinions with a pinch of salt, and I also view them within the context of his time and life. He was, like us, a man trying to follow in the steps of Christ, and like every Christian today he wasn’t always right. However, I do understand where you’re coming from, and I respect your right to disagree. If I die and I find that acting on my feelings was a sin, I know that at least I shall be judged according to my virtues and not utterly condemned for my sins.
I always did wonder that Christians never seem to take up arms against anything else. Not laziness, not greed or even corruption (like the deep corruption in some parts of the Catholic Church). I know that there’s not a lot of frequent homophobia in most churches here in England, but then I’ve been to an “African” church before and it can get pretty bad there. They’re rather against Jews and Muslims too…>.< And yes, the political correctness. It's hard to say anything without the PC brigade shouting at you. I truly hate that aspect of Britain.
Jonathan, I love your comment. It’s great to read another Christian teen willing to put himself out there for his beliefs. Like you’ve said though, in the end, it comes down to being perceived as wrong no matter which side a person places his/her stance. The most important thing, is to try to be as loving as we can, and not attack an individual for his chosen stance.
Sorry I didn’t realise you were English too, so a large part of that last paragraph was kind of pointless. And great blog, by the way. I’m a teenager too, and now I’ve finally found a blog written by someone my age and, what’s more, it’s actually pretty good. (Unlike the writing of the teenagers you talk about in that other post.) I wish I was a more motivated blogger like you are!
Haha, it’s alright. Thank you! 😀 I was actually going to follow your blog (you’ve a great taste in music, by the way 😉 ) but I wasn’t sure if you were still posting?
Thanks! And thanks for the other reply. Oh I don’t know, I just don’t post as often as I used to. There are a couple of topics I have in mind to post about soon so follow me if you want and you might be in luck.
Beautifully written and so well balanced – well done!
The Christians in the media have that horrid thing called “religion” – they need to remember that they are called to love instead of putting gays on their hooks. What in the world do those religious people think that Jesus would have done around you? He certainly wouldn’t have been telling you that God hates you!
This is a beautiful post and I would like to share it on my Facebook page as a link. It would make a positive impact on my gay and lesbian family and friends.
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IF GOD HAS BESTOWED FREE WILL ON ALL THEN WHO IS THE CHURCH TO INFRINGE ON THAT FREE WILL…………..
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and thoughts on this issue. It is an issue that desperately needs to be discussed and one that I have grappled with for years (and continue to grapple with). As a heterosexual Christian, I’m continually disgusted by those Christians who have somehow decided it’s okay to spew hateful comments against those who are different then they are. I’m going to be honest with you, I don’t know exactly how to deal with the issue of homosexuality, but I DO know, it’s not by speaking words of hate while hiding behind one’s Americanized version of what it means to follow Christ. It breaks my heart when I see how gay people (both believers and non believers) have been treated by some members of the Christian church. Please know that not all of us who claim Christ and seek to follow His teachings are full of hated and intolerance regarding this issue, and those are are, have missed His message completely. Many of us are seeking a dialog and a better understanding of God’s word. I hope you will continue this discussion and that you will ALWAYS know that God loves you even when you don’t experience love from sinful humans.
Thanks for writing about this challenging topic. I believe the war will end when we (people who profess to follow Christ) stop focusing on peripherals on either end of the spectrum and spend our energy desiring to know God better–through spending more time reading the Bible to see what He says about all these things, in prayer, seeking to understand how we should truly live every day in relationship with Him. I started to truly become a follower of Christ in my teenage years, and every day that I read, pray and study who He is I have an incrementally greater understanding of His love for me. I realize that if I am satisfied with where I am today, I am not willing to know Him more. If I desire to grow and become who He wants me to be, then I will trust him and change and grow into His image. As a fellow Christian, I just want to encourage you to do the same in your faith journey! Warmly, Eva H.
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I so greatly admire your boldness in writing this, d. I can’t say that I literally hear the words “God hates gays” coming from the church, but the way some churchgoers behave, they might as well be claiming such.
This is such a complex subject, and you tackle it with grace. I grew up in the church while also struggling for years with my own sexual identity. Now, I feel I have a certain sensitivity with others who share the same struggles.
Thanks for sharing your voice!
This is always a topic I stay away from. The fact is, so many feelings are involved in this matter, that to start putting one’s fingers into the stew pot means that somewhere, something will go wrong. As a Seventh Day Adventist Christian, I try to follow the guidance of the Bible, but like so many others, everyday I fall short. I am in no way perfect, neither do I consider myself an accurate representation of Christ. That my dear friend, is the problem with the Christian faith today.
Many of us prance out into the streets, proclaiming the words of God, and the writings of the various disciples, yet, in the safety and privacy of our homes, we perform acts that God would not approve of. On the other hand, there are those who are Christian in name, not in faith, randomly picking beliefs and texts from the Bible to suit their purposes. Then there is yet another group which exhibits certain behaviours which include premarital sex, alcoholism, immodest dressing, etc, but are identified as Christians. This is why the perception of Christianity, as well as many other world religions, is so skewered.
The call of Christ was for us to love God, and to love our neighbours as ourselves. These dictates to His followers were meant to remind us that the foundation of faithful discipleship is Love. Love is what makes us desire to follow the ten commandments; it makes us strive harder each day to follow Christ’s footsteps of empathy, compassion, consideration, and caring; it is the reason Christ came to Earth to die for us- so that we could be saved from the consequences of our sins. The problem is, how does the command to love, fit in with the warnings that the sins we commit will lead to eternal death.
Today, I sat at home struggling with so many questions regarding God’s love and His forgiveness. I wondered, if a child molester, rapist, or murderer was truly repentant, would that mean that God had no choice but to forgive he/she? I’ve wondered, if someone developed homosexual tendencies, but still loved God, would he/she still be eligible for entry into heaven? Here is what finally made me be still in my thoughts for the moment. God is perfect. The essence of His being is holiness, righteousness, and love. This is why, He can tolerate NO sin, but He LOVES the sinner. God does not turn away anyone from His arms of comfort, they are opened to all. However, He cannot be marred by any form of sin, whether it be lying, fornicating, committing adultery, breaking the Sabbath, or homosexuality. This is why Christ, when He came to earth, reinforced His Father’s laws and commands. They were all written to protect people like you and me. They were given out of love, because He knew that we needed the guidance and protection. The Jewish stipulations and requirements were set in a particular way to set them apart from the rest of the world. When Gentiles began to believe in Christ, it created a dilemma for the disciples. Which is why Paul wrote all those letters to the new believers. To clarify matters, and keep peace between the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians. Another point to note is that commandments, were different from ceremonial law. That’s why it seems that some of those stipulations were cast aside, yet things like refraining from unclean foods, dressing in modesty, etc were maintained. For example, Thou shalt not lie- seems like a trivial command doesn’t it? Yet one lie can do so much damage to your life, and the lives that you will touch with the misunderstanding or misconception that you presented in your life. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, six days shalt do labour and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord, in it thou shalt not do any work….- who the heck needs a Sabbath, right? That’s a thought that many professed Christians secretly and publicly query. It was placed there to give you a day to rest and relax from all the pressure and stress of daily living. It was set in place so that on one special day, we could go before God to enjoy His presence and be rejuvenated for the new week ahead. Thou shalt not commit adultery- it’s just sex right? It doesn’t matter. Many forget that sexual intercourse comes with emotional strings attached. There is no “just sex”. To add insult to injury, sex with the wrong person, or outside of the marriage bed, can lead to unwanted pregnancies, STDs, destroyed families, etc. Let’s look at homosexuality of itself. It has created this wides chasm between family members and their loved ones. It has caused disunity within society. It has created exceptionally painful emotional turmoil for those who were raised with certain beliefs, or who struggle with being different. Notice, all of this causes pain in some form. God in His infinite wisdom, lay out words, and commands which aim to keep us from having to experience unforeseen physical and emotional pain. His words weren’t just thrown together to picked apart to suit the purposes of someone out to manipulate, they were placed there to guide us in our decisions and lifestyles.
Those commandments were written with your well-being and health in mind. He loves you. He cares for you, but based on His scriptures, He does not approve of your lifestyle. However, as far as I see it, no one else here, has a lifestyle that will match up to His expectations. That’s why, I have no issues with your sexual preferences or desires, because I am not God. I am only a sinful human- being. I will not throw texts at you, or insult you because you were made in the image of God, and any shortcomings that are executed in your actions, are between you and Him. They are not my concern. I cannot accept homosexuality as the natural order of things, because from the foundation of the earth, God set Adam and Eve in its beginnings. However, as a child of God, I see you, for you. A person who deserves to be loved, accepted, and treated with the rights that a heterosexual Christian is also privileged to receive.
In short, I think you have the right to your emotions, choices, and sexual preferences, but I don’t think that God approves of them. Yet, it does not make you any less of person than I am in the sight of God. We ALL fall short of His glory. You have a long, and probably painful journey ahead of you, so I’ll be praying that you always have your family and friends to support you emotionally. Take care and thank you for an exceptional post!!!
I saw this posting [Mind the Gap] and subsequent comments at I time when I felt the need for some sort of spiritual connection. Because my family background was C of E I was exploring christianity. I have found no place in that faith community for me. I am trying to keep an open mind, because I accuse christians of closing theirs. So I read your words.
You said “Let’s look at homosexuality of itself. It has created this wides chasm between family members and their loved ones. It has caused disunity within society. It has created exceptionally painful emotional turmoil for those who were raised with certain beliefs, or who struggle with being different.” I am not sure that being gay requires rejection of ones family. The chasm, pain, disunity and turmoil you refer to are consequences of religious bigotry. Don’t blame the victims for their injuries.
You said ” I cannot accept homosexuality as the natural order of things, because from the foundation of the earth, God set Adam and Eve in its beginnings.” I can understand if you mean to say that being gay isn’t natural for you. But I don’t accept that what is natural for you must be natural for everyone. Yes, your book says that God put a straight couple in place at the beginning of human life on Earth. Are they not the people who invented sinning? If everyone descended from A&E then surely gay people are part of their family, surely God’s creation includes gay people? Why would God create people and things that He doesn’t approve of? Maybe it’s your approval that is in question?
Kadeen, I can’t accept your words as anything other than thinly-disguised bigotry, cloaked in fine but cliched words of acceptance and love. I don’t think that quoting words that supposedly came from the breath of your God is evidence of fact. I don’t accept your protestations that you have “no issues” with gays, that the problems come from conflicts between God and gays. Why would you write something close to an epistle if you are only an innocent bystander?
But thanks for helping me to confirm my choice to not be a christian.
Hello Deri,
I’ve only quickly read what you wrote, but please consider that no Christian since Christ fully understands the will of God. It doesn’t matter what other Christians say, but it matters what Jesus said. And he spoke to the individual about their own life, not their neighbours. Maybe you do not want to be a Christian, but maybe it would be worth following Christ instead? Maybe read what he actually said about things and see what you think. (he didn’t mention homosexuality anywhere).
Phil
Wow what a brave, bold and clearly written piece!! I am so impressed but your courage, knowledge and passion weaved into this topic!! I am a mother of four trying to instil Christian qualities into my children throughout their young lives and it has frequently crossed my mind that the odds of one of my children being gay is pretty high. Of course I would never, judge or shun them for this, in fact, I feel in my heart it may make me more protective of them. I would never want them to believe they would not be going to heaven for being gay or that they were sinners!! I pray for a God that loves all equally and will let mothers and fathers of gay children be reunited together one day in heaven!
Thank you again for being so brave and sharing such an emotional and thought provoking piece.
Peace, Love and Happiness
It’s refreshing to be see someone so open about the matter. How did you find out?
To be honest that is one of the reasons I sort of “lost” religion. (having fewer personal liberties) And are you so open about it in public? Then I would surely be proud of you…and again 🙂 Great post.
That I was gay? Puberty. 😉 And I know what you mean, I nearly lost my religion in the struggle to reconcile what I’d been told and felt, but in the end I didn’t. Many religious people today don’t seem to understand how freeing their faith should be, how it is meant to take you away from man’s quarrels and closer to God. They get caught up in rules instead. >.< And I wish that I could be more open about it, but I can't afford to be at the moment. I do stick up for gay rights, but I'm not actually out.
I’m not gay – I think – but maybe Bi-Sexual.
I have to say I’m quite astonished on how honest you are with yourself whereas I myself can’t really admit it to anyone – or myself.
It’s just that since being children we grow up with that ideal: Husband and Wife, children, garden, dog, house = Happy. It’s hard to get that idea out of my head.
Basically I’ll just have to wait until I’m sure and until I’ve moved somewhere else where I can reinvent myself and find out what it is.
But it is just pathetic to even have to discuss gay rights. After all, everyone is just the same and should have the same rights whatever the sexual orientation. The problem is that we’re always looking to see differences between “me and them”, not for what we have in common.
I try to believe in a future where everyone works together, no matter the differences. When we finally get over that stupid idea of “differences” maybe we can grow closer to a community – a global one – made of solidarity and acceptance.
Sorry for babbling on like that 🙂
I’m christian, and gay rights is one of the biggest problems I have with the church. I can see how murder is wrong, how jealousy is wrong, etc, but how can love be wrong?
And, hypothetically, is being gay is wrong, why are we making such a big deal about it andnot other things? Jealousy is wrong, but we don’t have political canidates giving speeches about making laws against jealousy. Being gay isn’t one of the ten commandments. Why do they choose gay rights to feel so strongly about?
It’s very complicated. Some of it is Biblical, most of it is political, some of it is psychological. I answered a woman once, about her concerns. You can read about it here: http://biblethumpingliberal.com/2012/08/06/about-christians-bigotry-and-homosexual-marriage-dear-sherree/
I recommend you pick up a copy of Mel White’s latest book. Get a copy of “Religion Gone Bad” used on the web, or under the newer title, “Holy Terror.” It is an excellent explanation for where the heat is coming from in the anti-gay crusade.
Loved your post. Yes there’s a deep dichotomy bordering or full blown hypocrisy in religion. I believe in Christ’s teachings. I may have been reading from a different bible but I could swear, and 12 years of Christian school, suggests that Christ taught tolerance, love of brother, non-judgement. How bible thumping, fundamentalists can support such a hateful stance is beyond me and in direct contradiction to the New Testament. I believe that we incarnate to learn certain soul lessons and to cultivate love and tolerance. If your path is as a gay woman then you had something to learn, give, from this situation. You should be celebrated as a unique child of God, not vilified by the very institution that should be sustaining and supporting you.
Speak openly, love carefully and don’t think that everyone who calls themselves Christian knows anything about loving Christ.
Anyone who calls them self a Christian and hates anybody better take a long look at themselves, and while they’re at it, they might want to remove the plank protruding from their own eye. We are commanded to love one another. It’s very simple. It is not for us to judge, shun, shame, punish, etc. We are COMMANDED to love. If anyone thinks that the Savior hates gays then that person probably doesn’t have a relationship or understanding of who He is.
I also think it’s much easier to separate the behavior from the person. Does God love stealing, lying, addiction, abuse of any kind, deviance of any kind, greed, pride, selfishness, etc. NO! It is the behavior that is in question, not the person. We are his children. As Christians we believe that Christ atoned for our sins, providing us a way back to live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. Without His sacrifice none of us would be worthy to return. He is the only one perfect among us and therefore it will be up to His judgement as to who gets a pass. As long as we are living by the example of the Savior; loving mercy, doing justly, giving service to our fellow man, and loving one another – it will be well with us.
Admittedly, I am a bit late to the party. I was busy wafting, relatively aimlessly, around the U.K.; which is your homeland, no? And the material I have found which best expresses that opinion didn’t exist the first time I read this. So perhaps it’s best I haven’t had time to do this yet.
Anyway, I felt that I ought to interject my opinion here. A little food for thought, and intelligent argument (which is so hard to find sometimes). Actually, I’m going to point you, and everyone who cares to read this, to the video of my pastor’s sermon last week. It can be found at http://www.madisonparkchurch.org. You have to do a bit of finagling to find it though. If you look on the right hand side of the page, there is a column with “Audio & Video” at the top. If you launch the player, you should see a list of sermons down the right had side. “Ask Anything #1” is Pastor Lyon’s sermon on homosexuality from a biblical perspective.
I know it’s a bit of a hassle to get too, but I think his opinion (and by way of agreement, mine) are well worth listening too. It would seem that several people of similar opinion have already commented here, but I think this video does a particularly good job of covering all the bases. And it helps that he’s a fairly engaging speaker, no one likes boring speaking of any kind. I hope you take the time to check it out!
On a somewhat related side-note, there is a lot of shouting going on in just about everything these days. Not just in the debate in question, but in all of politics, and religion, and social issues of all kinds. And you’re absolutely right, the media has a big hand in this. And it seems to be choking the life out of intelligence of all kinds here in America, and everywhere else it seems. If people stopped shouting, a lot more would get done.
Personally, I think homosexuals ought to be treated just the same as everyone else, because they’re no different. You’re no different. People are people, whether you approve of their actions or not.
That’s that, I suppose. Best luck on the whole blogging/writer thing; you’re already off to a much better start than me! And thanks for posting this in the first place (so long ago now), it was well worth the read, and must’ve taken considerable gusto to put put there. Hope this finds you well, and know that you will be remembered in the supplications of one more person. 🙂
I started reading all of the above comments and had to stop b/c the negative ones really boil my blood!! Just wanted to say awesome post. It was beautifully written and I loved hearing your point of view. God bless you!
I love this posting! It is well-written, concise, clear, and easy to read – which sounds basic, but is ridiculously difficult to find! I am a 53 year old, hetersexual woman who believes in God. I won’t say I’m religious, because organized religion is so political and seems to impose man’s laws into God’s words. I just want you to know that I support all of my gay, lesbian, and transgender brothers and sisters….and I do so vocally and online, every chance I get. Love is love. How can anyone think it right to deprive another of their right to feel it, have it, and express it? I pray for God to light the way for those who are so lost in their own darkness that they cannot celebrate the lives of others. I’m with you all the way, my friend. Blessings to you and those you love. xoJulia
Debate is great, but I fully support and thank you for your post. I’m hopeless in debate but do what I can to help my Christian and church friends forego the gay-bashing and the “Biblical” rhetoric, and to build some bridges of understanding. Btw, so much of our “Christian” rhetoric is based on verses that are very few, and rather far removed from the heart of God’s inSpired message for us in Jesus Christ. It is too easy to find a few verses from God’s Word to ancient people and throw them with little finesse but great enthusiasm at current issues – but I wonder why not at issues like our society’s addictions to financial and military power, and individualism? I’d also urge gays and lesbians to see past the religious extremes and media caricatures. Let’s do what we can to empathize – to get a feel for how others different from me tick and think, and why. And then ask, How would Jesus regard these people, what would He want to do for them, and how can I be part of that?
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